Curse

n0f3ai2 · Aug 02, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I think the dervish build is fine. Every class has its ups and downs. Yes, I admit, Elementalist is going to get changed some, but It shouldn't be too bad. The dervish's weakness is quite alot of things. For one, spikes, cant cast spells then they get screwed. Seccond, DoT like Conjure Phatism, Thirdly, Mesmers.

TadaceAce · Aug 02, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

People who say they don't use enchants you must be a horrible ele. You have to either use dual attunement, ether prodigy, or at the very least arcane echo.

And for those arguing about FC ele only have 45 energy... you know with dual attunements you basically don't lose any energy, even hypothetically spamming 25 energy spells.

Face the facts, ele is dead, they are going to be completely useless upon release of nightfall. Even more so than a sin is now.

To the guy above me, you honestly think DoT will phase a dervish? A dervish outheals 10 degen without breaking a sweat. Conjure phantasm hah.

n0f3ai2 · Aug 02, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Face the facts, ele is dead, they are going to be completely useless upon release of nightfall.

Not nesisairily. Like I said, each class has its downfall. Elementalist can whoop its counter class like any other class can depending on skill setup and skills.

unholy guardian · Aug 02, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

people always want to be a nuker and have a nuker, it sounds cool and fire magic is very useful in pve. ELE WILL NOT DIEZ

Ensign · Aug 02, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Glyph of Energy is horrid. At least use Second Wind, it's not terrible in the face of enchant removal...but it's incredibly vulnerable to interrupts and edenial. Pick your poison.

Eles didn't start to be prevalent in flexible builds until warriors had solidified their place. Then they started to show up as strong, anti-warrior and anti-pressure characters. Originally it was Blinding Flash, wards, and Heal Party. Ice started to be popular once Crippling Shot was nerfed and was no longer crazy spammable. It's definitely a metagame character, but such a strong one that it's hard to play without it.

If the dervish is going to have an effect on the amount of eles you see played, it is more likely that the reason will be a dwindling physical population to hate out than the dervish taking the ele's role. Eles are really only as good as physicals are. If dervishes spamming PBAoE become the new metagame, say goodbye to the class.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Aug 02, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If dervishes spamming PBAoE become the new metagame, say goodbye to the class.

That is my general concern, but i do think that the dervish option to play a parrallel role to a warrior and be a viable threat would be a good addition to the game. It would create more depth in what types of setups could be faced, but the current version of what the dervish can do and what actually slows it down needs more work.

I still think that some people are in shock at how effective the dervish pbaoe was in comparison to the existing elementalist options, in both damage and efficiency.

Trylo · Aug 03, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

*reads....*

*gets something to drink*

*reads....*

@Cynn,
Breaking ANY skill may just be a little to much to handle, especially with 10 recharge, but longer than that and you couldnt set it up properly for a spike. Anet needs to find a way to make this viable and fast...

@Ensign...kinda
Water is a nice snare, but i personally think we need a nice fast spam for ice that hexes for ...3-5 secs and is aoe with little to no damage to stop the blessed light etc. monks who can spaz out on hex removal. I am a huge fan of ice prsion and tenai's prison, very effective, but ANY monk should be able to get rid of it quick.

@ ppl who LIKE AoR...or think its viable...
1) Enchant.
2) 10 energy...
3) You have to waste energy to get healed, and usually be preyed on by interupts before you get your spell off, hence why a FC ele is superior. Its almost as if you have 45energy and 30e in reserve for healing, i mean its obviously not gunna outdamage a monk's heals.

Now if by every point in Energy Storage your elemental spells dealt 5% more damage, now that MIGHT be a solution for this pathetic damage output, wars have strength and are good at phys damage, why not give it to the supposedly ranged killer

Cynn Evennia · Aug 03, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

@Cynn,
Breaking ANY skill may just be a little to much to handle, especially with 10 recharge, but longer than that and you couldnt set it up properly for a spike. Anet needs to find a way to make this viable and fast...

My personal call is to make Mirror of ice 10 energy so it cannot be spammed like mad by non-elementalist classes without a serious sacrifice of energy pool, or 5 energy with the addendum "if it prevents a foe's skill to be used on you, you lose x energy and MoI ends" in the same way Distortion works. *sigh* How i wish ANET would hear this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

You have to waste energy to get healed, and usually be preyed on by interupts before you get your spell off, hence why a FC ele is superior. Its almost as if you have 45energy and 30e in reserve for healing, i mean its obviously not gunna outdamage a monk's heals.

Unfortunately ANET hates elementalists in every facet. They have just made Elemental attunement ES dependent, so with 0 ranks the FC ele has EA on just 30 secs, maybe 36 with a 20% enchant weapon, and a recharge of 45 (btw with 12 rank it lasts 50 secs). This is the third mod on EA; the second one was 60 recharge to 45 recharge, which made FC ele THE option.

Nevertheless i must thank ANET because now i can keep twin attunements on all the time... if there is not a shatterer around, so i always cover my twin atts with Aura.

Its sad that ANET made FC eles disappear but keeps the touchers on with an hilarious and absurd repetition of skills: now in Nightfall Vampiric touch/bite will be Vampiric what, smell? and the same skill repeated thrice (3 times) just because they are "core"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

Now if by every point in Energy Storage your elemental spells dealt 5% more damage, now that MIGHT be a solution for this pathetic damage output, wars have strength and are good at phys damage, why not give it to the supposedly ranged killer.

Extra damage with elements as a primary Elementalist would be really nice to have, for instance +3 energy storage and +3% elemental damage per rank in ES: for me 39% @ 13 ES is acceptable: it would make an ele deal 169 damage with a maxed Obsidian flame if she has 13 atts in ES (and besides 3-3 is more symmetric lol

). In that case id propose to rename "Energy storage" with "Elemental wisdom" or something inspired in energy storage and elemental attunement...

PS My HoH warder uses Glyph of energy because i run Obsidian Flame and Earthquake and so i need to reduce exhaustion and energy costs.

Xpl0iter · Aug 03, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Thankyou for Supporting my argument of "Why Nuking Sucks" thread being valid to this point, Still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

So you would be able to ruin any assassin combo with this skill, by making him fail lead attack or whatever the chain starts with. In absence of assassin you could use this vs necros and mesmers as improved hex breaker, or by reducing the nuking on you. Also useful for making ranger or mesmer interrupt fail when you try to cast the next spell. etc etc. Sounds very powerful to me.

A simple thing my friend.

An Assasin can ruin our spells by causing daze with temple strike, an elite.
A Necro can cast Lingering Curse, and watch what happens to our Echantments. All gone.
A Mesmer, well the list is huge.
A ranger, Well the interupting list is long, no to mention the natural armour they have against eles by default... any ranger crying? Not to mention Equinox, not every one carries it arround (thanks to God) affects spells with exhaustion.. Which targets mainly ele spells?

So whats up with a person asking for an ELITE which allows this person to have security 1nce every ten seconds while casting extremely huge cast spells (and thanks to Anet, believe me, we have tons of those long cast spells which have loads of energy consumption and a bad bad bad recharge) so why not? It is an Elite, and knowing how bad an ele is without its energy management elite skills, don't you think that it is not really overpowering an ele? Mind you, this last question was a rhetorical question, and i will let you think over that one for now. No need to answer me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Ether feast @ 12 insp heals 120 every ~10 sec

Um.... hello, have we met each other somewhere before? like some place called.. ZOMGiMsoLoST!!!!!?
DUDE. Let me explain Aura of Restoration and its Limitations and Flaws.

An Enchantment (Welcome to the thread of ELE ENCHANTMENT ISSUES)
Requires a Spell to be Casted, and heals you depending on the spell cost. Let me know the spell which we can continue thrrowing at u while u chase me wit ur assasin ok? um wait, did i say you chasing me? means i am not stationary so no way to cast and thus no heal? well....
Which spell do you wish me to cast if its a huge mana costing spell? meteor shower(5sec cast)? rodgorts(3sec cast), deep freeze (3sec cast) earthquake(3sec cast) Dude. you want me to actualy cast a 3 second spell to gain my health back while you chase my ass down the road? not to mention the horrible recharge time. I will prefer just kiting over this and let my health regen (Hoping you will not use dash or something of that sort)
Mind you, i am spending 25 mana spells to heal only 350% which is about 85-87ish health per spell cast?
Ok, even when i hit the damn spell and heal my self, am i to be compared with that ether feast which heals for 120 every 10 seconds? sure 3 second cast, but just 10 energy and if i assume right, better heal?

And in last, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT me to carry FLARE on my bar. i prefer doing some damage you know..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

Let me put in a simple, minimalistic way my vision and the purpose of this thread:

1. Elementalists rely almost entirely on their enchants
2. There are tons of enchant removal skills
3. We cannot protect ourselves from getting stripped
4. We cannot recast the enchants due to their high recharge time
5. We need a hand to avoid getting stripped
6. I propose less recharge on attunements (5-20 secs) and a modification on the currently uninteresting (if not useless) elite Mirror of Ice

Agreed to all of the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Dervish PBAoE blows away elementalist PBAoE. Bigger hits, lower costs, bigger AoEs, no ridiculous global cooldown. Toss in that dervishes came with their own built-in, permanent form of Ether Renewal.

Ah, your here atlast

good to see you here Ensign.
Well, the description that you gave of those dervish, isin't kinda sounding like the one every one was looking for in Eles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm rambling. Short version: eles are proactive monks whose abilities don't conflict with what the monks are doing. They help set up the offense with snares but that's really the extent of it.

*sighs* Hella good, that was for you. Any comments on that 6 month old thread that you were speaking about yesterday?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Sorry Cynn but I have SO rarely used enchantments when playing an ele, That I might as well say I never do. If while playing ele you HAVE to rely enchants then your not much good at playing one. Since the rest of your points rely on this thier all pointless.

Have'nt you guys ever heard of glyph of energy? For 15 seconds, your next spell costs 20 less energy to cast and does not cause exhaustion.

Welcome to the thread Spike. Meet me sometime in game. My In Game Name is Darkest Elemantal (yeh spelling is wrong, found that out when i had about 2 mil exp, which was a few months back) We will discuss your elite ways of nuking. Till then, God bless that poor ele in your hands. Am more of a PVE guy who understands a bit of PVP, and claims nothing of PVP. I have my own ways of doing stuff though.
@Frojack
We all love Ele-Dramatic People (Specially when the drama is quite right)! Cheers for making a good thread!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0f3ai2

Not nesisairily. Like I said, each class has its downfall. Elementalist can whoop its counter class like any other class can depending on skill setup and skills.

Long live the huge doubts with your comment!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If dervishes spamming PBAoE become the new metagame, say goodbye to the class.

You my friend, are Scary (and speaking The Truth)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

Now if by every point in Energy Storage your elemental spells dealt 5% more damage, now that MIGHT be a solution for this pathetic damage output, wars have strength and are good at phys damage, why not give it to the supposedly ranged killer

I actually love your idea of making this attribute better.
Spells will do more damage with energy points spent. Though, spells needs to be fixed still. Huge cost, recharge and cast time.
When dervish can be in front lines and do a damage like that of an ele, with warrior type abilities, eles, at ranged need to do better damage with spells for AoE, or for that matter, any damage at range.

@Cynn,
Nah, 3% is not enough due to the fact that this game is not just about PVP. It has a Huge area for PVE. I am afraid, the monsters we encounter in-game are still bad ass, hence, adding side damage ( like burning to fire, armour penetration for air, snares for water, and I Wonder what for earth? )
I hate to say, but an ele fireball gainst level 28 aataxe is still 31 damage, Plus they flee.
I will find one of my posts where i argued about monsters fleeing. I will look for it now and will edit this post when i do find it.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Spura · Aug 03, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

Yes, dear Spura, you posted exactly the applications of this prototype spell buffed Mirror of Ice i had in mind when i posted it, i thank you for reading between the lines.

I agree it sounds powerful but you know what? It is an elite, just defensive, it does not make people fail a non-skilled attack and almost each profession has something similar: i have already mentioned Spell breaker and Spell bond for monks, Shadow form for assassins and Hex breaker for mesmers, but the list in not exhaustive:

Wanna ruin any assassins combo or a ranger fail an interrupt? use: Guardian or Aegis or as a monk; (Deadly) Riposte, Bonnetis/Gladiators defense, Auspicious parry, etc etc as a warrior; Distortion, Spirit of failure, Clumsiness and Ineptitude as a Mesmer; Price of failure as a necro; Weapon of shadow/warding and Displacement as a Ritualist; Dodge, Escape etc etc as a Ranger. Not all these are enchantments but the enchants cannot be removed. I agree an ele has Silver armor but AGAIN this is an enchantment and this topic is about the excess of enchant removal skills out there and the lack of protection the eles have vs them!

You see, the problem is, buffed Mirror of Ice wouldn't do much in GvG or HA, but it would be incredibly powerful in arenas and AB. Thus I don't see the point or such a buff as it doesn't help eles any.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 03, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

@Cynn,
Nah, 3% is not enough due to the fact that this game is not just about PVP. It has a Huge area for PVE. I am afraid, the monsters we encounter in-game are still bad ass, hence, adding side damage ( like burning to fire, armour penetration for air, snares for water, and I Wonder what for earth? )
I hate to say, but an ele fireball gainst level 28 aataxe is still 31 damage, Plus they flee.

My dear Xpl0iter i said 3% because i was "trying to bargain with ANET"... LOL

but let me support the argument that Fire sucks at PvE: I went to Abbadons Mouth with maxed Meteor and Star burst (119 fire damage) and this is what i found:
Level 24 Mursaat Mesmer/Necro = 125 dmg
Level 24 Jade Armor = 64 dmg
Level 24 Jade Bow = 70 dmg
Level 28 Mursaat boss = 21
I wanted to laugh out loud but then i hesitated between a laugh or a tear

Nevertheless, Elementalist bosses are fearful, they DO DEAL REAL DAMAGE. Or tell me isnt Bounded Teinai in Tannakai temple and his "one spell kill" Star burst the boss you fear most, or what about Tamu the dragon at Nahpui quarter and his 299 dmg Lightning surge vs soft targets?

EDIT: The level 24 ele boss Chung the Attuned hits for 324 damage with his Lightning orb on a 60 armor foe. Can we just hit over 200 please ANET ?

Cynn Evennia · Aug 03, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

You see, the problem is, buffed Mirror of Ice wouldn't do much in GvG or HA, but it would be incredibly powerful in arenas and AB. Thus I don't see the point or such a buff as it doesn't help eles any.

My dear Spura im afraid i completely disagree with you. Try to cast a Meteor shower (5 secs) and before releasing it you will receive tons of attacks, inters, conditions, hexes and KD. My Mirror of ice is meant to prevent ONE of this attacks, ONLY ONE, because it is not a stace and hence it cannot be turned on while casting. Moreover, 10 secs means it is not spammable, it is the natural recharge of SS, and that is why people echo SS to really spam it.

Let me post again my proposal.

This is the current Mirror of ice

Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.25
Recharge Time: 10.00
For 60 seconds, the next time an enemy Spell would deal damage to you, that damage is negated and that Spell's caster takes 10..70..90 damage.

Compare with Hex breaker, a stance and non-elite mesmer skill related to domination:

Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.00
Recharge Time: 15.00
For 15..63..79 seconds, the next time you are the target of a Hex, that Hex fails, the caster takes 10..39..48 damage.

or with Spell shield, divine favor non-elite enchantment, rarely seen since interrupting a monk is VERY hard and the healer cannot afford an auto Blackout, but useless for another profession for the divine favor dependence:

Energy Cost: 10
Casting Time: 2.00
Recharge Time: 30.00
For 5..17..21 seconds, while you are casting Spells, you cannot be the target of spells. When Spell Shield ends, all of your skills are disabled for 10..6..5 seconds.

Personally after seeing the numbers id better equip Hex breaker than Mirror of Ice because MoI does not make Backfire, Lingering curse and degen spells fail. Moreover, when shattered you Do lose your enchantment, meanwhile Hex breaker can be turned on again immediately after ending since it is a stance, protecting you from a second hex.

This is my buffed Mirror of ice

Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.25
Recharge Time: 10.00
For 30 seconds, the next time an enemy uses a skill or you this skill fails and Mirror of Ice ends. If Mirror of ice ends before natural expiration you lose 5..2..1 energy.

I say SKILL because the enchants can be removed using hexes, spells, signets and skills.

A personal note.

Mirror of ice is an elite, and if you are an ele or have followed this thread you will realise that in general we use twin attunements, Elemental attunement (elite) + X attunement, in order to cast as a machine gun because one single spell does not deal a decent amount of damage. Otherwise we equip an elite for extra damage or energy management. So if we have equipped the buffed Mirror of ice, which is pure defense, we have sacrificed extra damage or energy management. Moreover, almost all interrupters have at least 2 skills for that purpose so MoI will only help us against the first one.

So i think it is a fair to trade extra damage or energy buffs for a little protection.

*****

PS Maybe this is the Mirror of ice FTW people think i am asking for (not a bad idea ANET but no thx anyway i wanna keep the challenge on):

Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 0.25
Recharge Time: 2.00
For 60 seconds ALL enemy skills used on you fail and disabled for 10 seconds. 50% failure if Energy storage level is less than 4.

[i hope the sarcasm was obvious]

Xpl0iter · Aug 04, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

@cynn
ROFL, would love to have that godly skill.

Lordhelmos · Aug 04, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Wow this is frightening... the more we unravel this nightfall problem, the more we find out how elementalists suck at their jobs...

Obviously the cons of the class outweight the pros... The only reason elementalists are around now is because intelligent players took all of these extemely lacking skills and traits and the best that they could come up with is a psuedo-healing flagrunner, or even a half decent warder.

I'm seeing less and less eles as well. Minion Masters dominate in PvE and the only places an ele is really usable is FoW due to the lack of bodies.

Lordhelmos · Aug 04, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

So now the big list of cons:

-Poor Energy Management; including lack of decent non-elite skills. 4 pips of regen can't possible handle an 80 E bar. Seriously only about 40 of that energy is really usable once you spend it on what? 2 spells?

-Absolute Crap Armor and Defensive Options. 60 AL, the lowest max in the game and complete reliance on enchantments for self defense. The ONLY viable source of solid defense an elementalist has is wards, which still aren't enough to protect against the big damage an ele will be take because of AL. The best choices for self defense are ALL enchantments and can be easily stripped, Obsidian Flesh being the best but forcing the elementalist to forgo any kind of decent energy management in order to use it. Non-targeting strips still remove flesh as well and the 50% slow is murderous. Mirror of Ice as explained is crap, and Mist Form offers no protection against added effects (vampiric and so forth). With defensive elites, forgoing the energy management elite is a massive drawback and will leave you with no energy and not enough regen to fill up that 80 E bar. With the coming of dervish, the eles will have the submarine parked in port anus, as was seen in the preview event.

-Impossibly Long Cast Times and Exhaustion. Many of the elementalist skills have extremely high cast times, cause exhaustion (which lowers the max E that you will NEVER use because of a piddly 4 pips of regen) and also do little mass damage to cover their cost and casting dangers. The problem with these spells (Like MS and even EQ) is that without negligable energy management think of how long it takes to regain 25 energy off 4 pips? You think that 80 E matters? No once you cast 2 spells you wont even break the 50 energy mark. Ether Prodigy is one of the few solutions to this and is suicidal AND is an enchantment, not to mention it strips you on use and kills you enchantment defenses. Glyph of Energy is also a solution but has a recharge of 15. With the glyph an elementalist can function off 5 E but still suffers the pains of that 15 second recharge. This further proves that energy storage just plain sucks.

-No Protection Against Hexes or Conditions and No Self Heal Survival Skills. A mesmer will kill you, nuff said. Aura of Restoration suffers from the long cast times and can't be used on the fly to save you. It requires the cast of huge cost spells to be effective, but chokes on the cast times of those spells. These drawbacks make you 100% reliant on your monk, who in turn hates your guts for being a blackhole for his heals. What a team player.

So why do I want to be an elementalist again?

Breaking it down:

The BIGGEST Issue:
-The crappiness of Estorage, which ties into alot of things. With a measly 4 pips of E regen and such a huge bar, elementalists swoon on the battlefield so long just to use skills while other classes cast 3x faster. Not to mention the hundreds of interrupts flying around. Just to cast one earthquake at 5E, which an elementalist can get down to very quickly, I will have to wait for my 4 pips to recharge me to 25, then wait an additional 3 seconds to cast. Now im not even going to go into what a warrior can do in that time span. The reliance on a elite for E management throws alot of elementalist possibilities out the window since you will be focused on maintaining that huge bar of energy and the high costs that go with it. Think about how many spells a 40 E monk can cast and even throw out some aegis spells before an elementalists gets off ONE meteor shower, not to mention the time it takes before the elementalist can do that again. Guildwars is a very fast paced game with an emphasis on timing. It is because elementalists are too slow to keep up that they remain on the bottom of the food chain. Having so much energy does more damage to an elementalists than it does good. Seeing fast cast mesmers perform better nuking jobs than elementalist primaries proves this. Elementalists have some very big bars, big numbers, big cast times, and even exhaustion. Because of Estorage, having inadequete regen to manage those skills and completely reliance on enchantments and easily strippable/interruptable skills, elementalists move at a pace way slower than any other class. Seriously after reading throw this, when I mow a lone ele down with my warrior now in PVP I feel like I'm picking on a slow kid off the short bus.

In short, looking at the rates of E regen and consumption:

Take a monk with 4 regen and 40 energy using 5-10 cost skills.

Compare this to an elementalists with 4 regen and 80 energy using 15 and 25 cost skills.

Which one of these is more effecient? The monk will blow his energy very quickly but gain it back very fast. The elementalist will blow though his energy just the same but whats quicker? Gaining back 40 at 4 regen or 80 at 4 regen? Do you know how LONG it takes to get 40-60 energy back at 4 pips? With Eprod an elementalist is working with 9 pips and an 80 energy bar, which is FAR more managable. Eles have to use Eprod just to maintain a NORMAL rate of use and consumption.

So think about that if your gonna argue about the benefits of having more energy, because really I don't see any. More energy and that weak regen rate just slows the pace that an elementalist functions at. If an elementalist had 4 pips and 40 energy, but was using 5-10 cost spells the functionality of the class would be way different. It would have more sense to make the class function that way and just boost the cast times longer than other classes by a small margin.

But no elementalists are stuck with that HUGE freaking bar, loads of super expensive skills that take an eternity to recharge, and long cast times that are prone to interruption AND on top of that they deal with exhaustion. I see a problem in mechanics here.

As an elementalist your waiting on alot of things.

-The long recharge it takes to gain 25 energy off 4 pips.
-The long cast time of the spell ranging from 3-5 seconds.
-The long cooldown time of the spell ranging fro 30-60 seconds.
-Exhaustion that lengthens the time you have to wait in order to use a high cost spell if you are heavily stacked with it.

At 5 energy im trying to cast 1 meteorshower.

-If I gain an estimated 2 energy every second of my regen thats 10 seconds right there until I hit 25.
-5 second cast time.
-60 second cooldown on MS.
-I stack exhaustion.

A SEVENTY FIVE SECOND CYCLE just to cast 1 meteorshower and have it return AND I stack 10 points of exhaustion. If I glyph of sacc it its a 90 second recharge.

Come on now... this is plain wrong...

If you want to know the problem with elementalists, the major one lies right there, with Estorage and all those big numbers. The entire set of mechanics on which an ele functions is broken in comparison to other classes. Eles live in a different world from those guys... a much slower one. Having so much energy and big spell costs just totally bucks the system for eles. They would be better off functioning on a smaller bar like other classes. To compensate for this elementalists NEED more raw energy regen to manage all that E. Whether its in the form of cleverly constructive skills or maybe more pips, i would say as much as 6 pips would be needed to make a 80 E bar that uses 15-25 cost spells function as well as a normal monk or mesmer bar that maxes at 40 and uses 5-10 cost spells. This is the reason why glyph of energy and Ether Prodigy are the most popular ele elites, only because they speed up the eles regen cycles up to a normal level that functions fast enough for an ele to compete with other classes.

And now nightfall comes along with all its enchantments crap and threatens the already broken class even more... It's really not that hard to figure out.

The easiest solution would be to up the regen of the eles E to 5 pips or even 6. This would put the elementalists on a way more functional level. It would be just like having a monk that has 5-10 cost skills with a max of 40 E.

In short, having a ton of energy doesn't do crap for you. All you get is 1 or 2 free spells before your stuck waiting to cast energy taxing skills that your piddly regen can't ever manage. This is ALL Estorage does. A big bar just buys you a few more spells, but once you cast down to 40, your stuck with the same mechanics as all the other classes, but instead of 5 and 10 cost spells you deal with 15 and 25 cost monsters. That my friend, is what is murdering this class. The low armor and crappy defenses and just more nails in the coffin.

In my opinion, Estorage is the worst attribute designed in the game. It's because eles function on this attribute as a cornerstone that they are so weak. Sorry all, but theres the truth. With Estorage at the core, Eles are a castle built out of poop. Unless something is done about that bad smell, Nightfall is going to come along and tap that flusher once and for all.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 04, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

The easiest solution would be to up the regen of the eles E to 5 pips or even 6. This would put the elementalists on a way more functional level. It would be just like having a monk that has 5-10 cost skills with a max of 40 E. In short, having a ton of energy doesn't do crap for you. All you get is 1 or 2 free spells before your stuck waiting to cast energy taxing skills that your piddly regen can't ever manage. This is ALL Estorage does. A big bar just buys you a few more spells, but once you cast down to 40, your stuck with the same mechanics as all the other classes, but instead of 5 and 10 cost spells you deal with 15 and 25 cost monsters.

My dearest Lordhelmos you are totally right. I have just made my mesmer a FC air spiker, and it hurts me to say that even with Elemental attunement nerfed (vs FC eles) i was able to mantain my energy over 20 always, and my spikes were more effective (faster) than Cynn's

not to mention that i had an extra slot (Aura was out) for an inter spell.

You have touched a nice point, milord. E-storage just makes E/Mo a Heal party spammer and a nice healer with the Arcane Healer build (i got masters in Unwaking waters on both sides with me as a healer

) but it does not help any line of elemental magic. It would be nice to eliminate the 3 extra energy for each rank in ES and to have instead 1 extra pip of energy for each 4 ranks on ES but im afraid its not feasible nor desirable: it would make the Elementalist the best primary profession, and we would be seeing tons of E/N necros, E/Me mesmers or E/whatever but NOT A SINGLE ELEMENTALIST.

The task we need to adress here is how can we make the Elementalist a better profession without buffing cross professions.

I have this ideas:

1. Lets modify Mirror of ice (or create a stance or anything) to protect the ele's enchantments
2. Lets forget the extra energy of ES and lets consider instead "Elemental wisdom" with extra damage per rank when using elements
3. Lets make all attunements ES dependent (now EW dependent lol) with the energy rebate (payback, return) depending on ES ranks and with a 100% rebate when ES is maxed (btw having twin attunements gives 83% back)
4. Lets halve cost, casting and recharge times of ele's spells

Undoubtedly, an elementalist with only 45 energy but a Meteor shower (or rodgort invocation or earthquake) costing 15 energy, casting in 2, recharging in 15, with an energy rebate over 70% and with no exhaustion would make the difference in PvE (and in PvP also), that i can foretell.

I confess this "Elemental wisdom" have made me rethink the stats of the elite Elemental attunement but lets say it has the same rebate rates than the modified attunements (ie depending on ES-EW ranks) with the elite extra that it pays back for all elemental spells. And like Necro's Orders it would be correct to make the attunements non stackable.

This would be really interesting since its a buff on eles and eles only.

PS if you have just the elite Elemental attunement on you cannot cast all the time, 50% energy back and always rounded downwards is not enough, thats why we usually run twin attunements and cry when they got removed.

pve-er · Aug 04, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I have a nuker, the only char that people at least be happy to accept me in PvE ( damn Assassin are moch hated and Warrior is everywhere). in fact my only worth is Rodgort invocation and Meteor shower. which bot use 25 energy and casting time exceed 3 second that everyone can interupt me by forcing me to run or interupt skill.

I spend quite some time in FoW farming adn explore arround. I notice a lot of things

1. beside Rodgort invocation and Meteor Shower, other attack spell are NOT effactive against foe for these day, not even ice golem and ice imp which fire should be a pain to them. even the 2 most powerful fire spell do not much to foes.

2. high cast and recharge time. being a nuker, we are request to use Meteor shower as much as possible. the most I can do is 3 Meteor shower, some do 4 . but what after that? the exhaustion and depletion make ele totally useless for almost forever. if I went on and become a spell spammer, then my energy will run out in 20 second before I can really kill anything. 2 attunement is the onlypractical solution in solve energy issue but I become totally useless when a foe strip them out. because the skill are still recharging and the shatter enchantment almost put me to death.

3. Why is enemy deal more damage then we do to them. take example of jade brotherhood, they are human and are lvl 20, when they have mage arround, I have to kill them ASAP else they bring a lot of pain to my team, while I am lvl 20 and my spell do little damage to them, I didn't careful look at it but there are little reduction in their health bar.

4. like other said, 4 pipe of regen is WAY low for Ele. Energy storage give us a huge looking energy bar but the cost of spell is huge too. after 20 second of casting we are totally drained if not those attunement. even those glyph are not enough to cover much.

5. I need to maintain my fire attribute to keep up the power of AoE / nuking dmg but I have no mean to heal or protect myself. I use distortion from my mesmer line to keep me alive and allow me to finish the everlasting cast of AoE spell which still not quite reliable. the high cast time of spell make aura of restoration totally useless against enemy attack, glyph of concentration do nothing but let me get kill.

Come on, what can ele do best these day with all these nerf, warrior can take damage yet deal a lot of dmg depend on build. assassin is a monk/ caster killer although they still need some buff, Ritualist's spirit has huge AOE affect and spirit attack range is so damn long. monk, no need to say. Ranger has AoE spirit, trap and all these nausty arrow. memer has huge spike and degen as well as inerupt that ruin the day. necro is all arround caster that can do almost anything.(SS, SV, BR, MM.....). the only thing that Ele should od is give huge damage to foe (damn foe has deal much dmg then we can with the same spell). AoE of Ele is small range, 1 on 1 spell is nearly useless in dealing damage. we are easily interupt and take huge energy and time to cast a little attack that can easily be dodge (you can't dodge hex).

Ele need abuff, in Energy management, self heal/ protection and damage for sure.

let hope Anet read this, They said Ele is damage dealer in their GW game guide, but these day, anything can out damage them. . we need a buff in Ele adn assassin too

blaise · Aug 04, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Elementist will never go down, i love my ele. i use flare, so? want 1vs1?

Moa Bird Cultist · Aug 04, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

My dear Xpl0iter i said 3% because i was "trying to bargain with ANET"... LOL

but let me support the argument that Fire sucks at PvE: I went to Abbadons Mouth with maxed Meteor and Star burst (119 fire damage) and this is what i found:
Level 24 Mursaat Mesmer/Necro = 125 dmg
Level 24 Jade Armor = 64 dmg
Level 24 Jade Bow = 70 dmg
Level 28 Mursaat boss = 21
I wanted to laugh out loud but then i hesitated between a laugh or a tear

Nevertheless, Elementalist bosses are fearful, they DO DEAL REAL DAMAGE. Or tell me isnt Bounded Teinai in Tannakai temple and his "one spell kill" Star burst the boss you fear most, or what about Tamu the dragon at Nahpui quarter and his 299 dmg Lightning surge vs soft targets?

EDIT: The level 24 ele boss Chung the Attuned hits for 324 damage with his Lightning orb on a 60 armor foe. Can we just hit over 200 please ANET ?

I Lol'ed when he hit my ele/war for 29 damage

oh, btw, Earth doesnt need any buffs, leave it alone, everyone, please. ES is pretty insignificant too in the kind of build i play - i never run more than 50~55 energy, sometimes, I only run 40-something. Yes, as you can guess, my build is very weak against enchantment removal, but hey, these things can be worked around by timing your casts cleverly. hey, maybe the class needs buffing, but i get by with earth and can pull my weight as a team member - thats all that really matters to me.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 04, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moa Bird Cultist

ES is pretty insignificant too in the kind of build i play - i never run more than 50~55 energy, sometimes, I only run 40-something. Yes, as you can guess, my build is very weak against enchantment removal...

Let me guess, gracious Moa bird, do you run an Armor of Earth + Kinetic armor build with 16 earth? Whatever, you have touched the inner fibres of this thread: ES is pretty insignificant as it is now and eles depend on enchants that can be easily removed and cannot be locked/protected.